A Conversation Regarding War

My original comment regarding an article sent to me by Andy posted at http://5ptsalt.com/2011/05/29/remember/

*Me*
Although it may have already been said, i will reiterate…Let us remember that war is a tool for the rich to get richer, redraw the lines of nations and replace leaders to their benefit, to gather the power of the world to themselves at the expense of the lives of our fathers,mothers, brothers, sisters and neighbors.  War has no benefits whatsoever as there are no enemies save those that are created by therich, powerful and underhanded to these ends.  A “Christian” that supports war of any kind, save defending his family and neighbors from immediate harm, is, i dare say, no “Christian” at all.There are many who have or know family and friends in the military and forever cry to support the troops.  I do not hate or despise them, but i cannot and will not support their mission to destroy life for no reasonwhatsoever.  If I am despised for my opinion, then so be it as I do not find in the words of Jesus a justification for war of any kind on our part.As for those who have died in wars and conflicts I agree, “Do not only grieve for their loss but remember the lies and liars that killed them.”

*James*
You Say….and I quote…” I do not hate or despise them, but i cannot and will not support their mission to destroy life for no reason whatsoever”………I think very highly of all our members of the Armed forces as they protect the very freedoms you and I enjoy! And as far as I am concerned they can be as much a God fearing Christian as any of us!Sorry no matter the World Politics…. This one just hit a nerve. Forgive me but my opinion like yours will have to stand.God Bless You,Your Brother in Christ,James

*My response to James*
i think highly of these brave men and women myself brother, i was once in their shoes.  I have no beef with them, it is the cause of their mission with which i disagree.  They are sent as cannon fodder in an elaborate game of chess in which there are no winners.  As I once stood in uniform, i can guarantee you that the military no longer serves the likes of our freedom, but only to keep grease in the war machine.  everyday war continues, our freedoms decrease in the name of safety and security.  I do not intend to defile the honor of anyone serving or having served.  I am certain that there are Christians among those serving, but they have unwittingly allowed themselves to be used by evilmen for a cause they do not know.  I knew when i sent this that i would strike nerves.  I can only hopethat it causes those who see this to seek the truth in scripture and elsewhere.I am certain that your son is a fine Christian man, he does not want to be at war.  It is the masters of war to which this is directed.  I hope that he soon finds his way out of the military and lives a long healthy life with his family.With Love,

*Angie*
I have to agree with James on this. I don’t like war, I don’t condone war, I certainly don’t abide or enjoy in any way, shape or form, killing of another human being, but there are times, past and present, when war has been a necessity. I’m not sure there would be any Christian’s left in the world if not for war. This being said, I don’t always agree with our countries motives or tactics. I have many family members that are in or have been members of the armed forces, including my husband, all the way back to ancesstors in the Revolutionary War and I will continue to pray for our military members as well pray for peace.  Your sister in Christ, Angie

*My response to Angie*
i was responding to an article sent by Bro. Andy http://5ptsalt.com/2011/05/29/remember/ .  There are many people out there who think that these wars are keeping us free, but that is not true.  our freedom is being stripped from us daily while our loved ones are “over there” being killed and killing…for what, “democracy”, I think not.  why are we there in the first place…9-11, that was a lie.  We are involved in never ending wars based on lies and deception, continuing to go place to place killing and being killed.  There is no logical justification for this.  I support our troops…bringing them home, that is.  After rereading my comment, i really dont see the issue.  As for Christians, all i said was that they don’t condone war.  Do Christians go to war to free Christians?  I don’t really see that in the teachings of Jesus.  I do see, however, going on missions to prepare souls for death.  This is a different battle.  Imagine if we sent armies of missionaries instead of armed soldiers, imagine what would happen.  By the way, i’m not calling everyone who is or has been in the military a non Christian as they have no choice in their “mission” and surely those who are Christians, do not support war, i would like to think.  I’m referring in my comment about those leaders in the military and gov and some who call themselves “Christians” that I hear say things like…”look what those ragheads did to us, we need to turn them into a glass parking lot or kill them all”  This is not love.  I love you, Neal, and your family and James and his family and all my brothers and sisters in Christ.  This comment was not meant to imply, nor did I say that everyone in or was in the mil is not a Christian and that we should not pray for their safety.  Lets bring them home and stop this meaningless war.

*Neil*
Clear something up for me. Are you inferring that all wars are not worth fighting, or just the ones in which you do not agree?Choose your words carefully, your stomping on a lot of toes here.Sorry about the delay, I don’t get on here much any moreYour broher in Christ, Neil

*Paxton*
I must say that I agree with you! He also said “save defending his family and neighbors from harm”, that area may be just a home, a neighborhood, a town, a state or a country. How do you draw the line. How many lives did we save by defeating Japan and Germany? How many wars did God ordain in the old testament to fulfill his will? How has Israel maintained it’s God given territory to fulfill his will for His chosen people and the revelations of Revelations?I’m afraid our brother is way off base here as a judge, saying present and past soldiers are no way Christians. Some of the finest Christians I’ve known were participants in the military and in wars. Retired judge, Jack Holt was saved prior to leaving for Europe in WW11 and piloted a B-24 over Germany surviving  25 missions. He was a man of influence to me in my early Christian life. A strong advocate of our Lord and Savior. He never proclaimed to be a hero, just did the job he had to do, as so many others did, to set men free.Every good thing we have is from our Lord, including being blessed to live in this free country. The gifts by his grace are to be cherished and we should not neglect the care we take of what he has blessed us with. Whether it’s our home, our health, our family and yes the land we are very blessed to live and worship freely in.Your brother in Christ,Paxton

*My response to Neil and Paxton*
Brothers, i dont agree with war at all, but mostly unjustified or unjustifiable war like we are in now.  Unjustifiable meaning offensive war.  Inimmediate defense of our families and i suppose by extension our country is, i would think, justifiable.  btw, i’m saying no more or no less thanthe writer of this article > http://5ptsalt.com/2011/05/29/remember/  these conditions of war are being used to enslave us all by taking awa our freedoms in the name of security and safety which most say these wars preserve.
I think the thing that is upsetting most people is the comment about”Christians”.  Let me be more clear.  If a person in his heart or with his mouth, which usually tells what’s in the heart, uses the word “nigger”or “raghead” or “gook” or “spik” etc etc, Then in his heart he hates his neighbors.  Same goes for war.  If a person, wants to kill his neighbors for something they did not do, then that is a hate filled heart.  But, on the other hand it could just be plain ignorance.  I’ve heard people make comments over the years like “turn that place into a glass parking lot” and “kill those ragheads” and other such comments.  I can only conclude that those people are not Christians from their own mouth.  This is what I mean by supporting war.
I do not say that the men following orders are to be blamed or hated as I’ve said before, they are only following orders and should be upheld in prayer and support.  The ultimate show of support would be to bring these men and women home to their families.
Lets also look at the examples that Jesus gave us.  He told us to turn the other cheek.  He also took beatings, mokeries and was killed by enemies and oppressors of the Jewish people without uttering a word in defiance.  How much do we REALLY want to be like Jesus??
I dont know why i would be stomping on toes brother.  I would also be stomping on my own.  I was in the army too, so was my grandfather and my dad.
Supporting war and supporting the troops is two entirely differentsubjects.
to help understand a little better, I heard this talk show today and they mayexplain it a little better.  Please listen to the attached file if youcare to.
also paxton, if you want to go back and talk about what’s in the oldtestament in the bible, i can bring up alot of laws and rules that most”bible believing persons” are not even aware, of much less follow…thingsthat we were told to do FOREVER.  just like i hear people in churches say, a good Christian would tithe and go to church every sunday.  wheredo they get that.  mostly from the old testament, but when you say something about remembering the sabbath, then “we dont have to do that anymore”.  it’s in the same old testament.  so scripture is used when itbenefits people and ignored when it dont.  You too make judgments everydayabout many things and people, some to which i have been privy.  It justso happened that i made mine public for everyone else to judge, whichseveral have already done about my statements and certainly about me aswell.
Do you think that it is okay to go to war for anything that deprives us ofof our comforts or our “way of life”?  What justifies war or killing another human?  Wheredo we think we get the authority to make those “judgments”??
And when did i say that our past and present soldiers are notchristians.  I never said that and I would not say that.
by the way, i’m planning to consolidate all of these conversations,including my comments and yours, and everyone else that comments orquestions, on my website for all to see and comment on.  If you wouldlike a link to this post, let me know.
With Love,TP
PS: Share this with someone you love…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_LhXGo8dkg&feature=player_embedded

**any further interactions will be posted in the comment section of this post**

**the following podcast on PID Radio by Derek and Sharon Gilbert help explain my feelings on this matter**

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This entry was posted in Audio, Religious/Spiritual, Sociopolitical. Bookmark the permalink.

10 Responses to A Conversation Regarding War

  1. 00warrior says:

    *Andy*
    After re-watching the video I originally sent I must ask for your forgiveness. I do not agree with 80% of what was said and the point that was trying to be made. Please forgive me. The ones that seem to be in control are not in control of anything. God is Sovereign.

    The Bible teaches that God is sovereign. By sovereign we mean that God possesses and exercises supreme authority and control in all creation, including man.
    and no one has power over us unless given from above
    John 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
    John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. Also they do not have the power to start or stop a war, unless God approves. God moves the hearts of men to accomplish the very things He wants done. Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar just to mention a couple. And what about the soldiers that carried out God’s plans, Saul and David (a man after God’s own heart) just to mention a couple. We can not stop the wars, main reason being – Jesus said we would have them! He said it -then its gonna happen. Amen. Matthew 24:6&7 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.(7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. Keyword in verse 6 “must come to pass”. Wars will come and go until THE WAR to end all wars. What about the soldiers? Not “Christians” dear brother you should have thought this out a little better. Romans 9:21 (KJV) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? or (NIV) Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? Do you dare say that soldiers can not be forgiven? I think so. As a matter of fact if you done your research you would see that there was lost men went in to war and came back Christians. I for one thank my Lord and Savior for the men that have gave their life so that i may have the freedoms to do the things I do. My advise for you is to Pray for forgiveness for passing such harsh judgment and pray for these liars. Sorry to be so hard, but to say someone is or is not a Christian is not up to us to decide. (Christians- believe Jesus is the Messiah prophesied in the Hebrew Bible, the Son of God, and the savior of mankind from their sins.) Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: (15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. And this being the most important – Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. That is very serious. I’ll be praying for you that the God of love who is love will fill you with His agape love. I say again please forgive me for even sending this video. Andy

  2. 00warrior says:

    *Me*
    never did i say that the soldiers were not christians. why is EVERYONE assuming this? I said those that “SUPPORT WAR” very clearly, and I did not say SOLDIERS. What does the word “SUPPORT (verb)” mean? These things that are prophesied to come on the earth “wars and rumours of wars”, are not neccesarily a product of God any more than OUR sinning is a product of God. God gave us FREE WILL. Job could have sinned, but he didn’t by his own will. Are you saying that men have no choice over making war, that we are robots at God’s command? The whole reason that judgment comes soon is because of our free will choices to rebel and sin. that does not mean that GOd is not ultimately in charge, but we still can make war at OUR WILL.

    If i can see by someone’s fruits that they are not showing signs of a christian, what else should i call them? You make judgements every day. How many times have you said, “that’s not very christianlike”? Have you said this to me about others on occasions brother? If you have, you have judged the same. Sin is sin, rebeling against the Father.

    You need not apologize to me, i didn’t even watch the video, i only read the article. my statement had nothing to do with the soldiers, unless it applies to them. Can you watch someone’s life and tell if they are Christians? How else will we know them? If someone enjoys making war, and war is intended to kill and destroy, then what should we say about these people?

    I wonder if anyone read the rest of my statement, namely the last line? Did i say that soldiers or anyone could not be forgiven? I did not.
    I feel like i chose my words carefully. Whether they were understood or not, i cannot help. Everyone is adding things that I did not say to make my words seem bad.

    The whole reason the world is the way it is, is because God’s people who are called by His name will not repent and seek his face. They would rather seek what’s on TV or how much junk they can buy.

    I have also replied to others several times, which you might want to read. i will send these comments to you.

    Never have i downed the soldiers (in general) in any way. Mostly I was referring to those who make the wars and send people to die and be killed.

  3. Warrior Lisa says:

    Jesus is called The Prince of Peace, but his followers have been involved in Religious wars for nearly two thousand years. They’ve led crusades, inquisitions, and holocausts.The Catholics and Protestants have been killing each other since the 16th Century, and continue unabated to this day in Northern Ireland. The only Nuclear Bombs ever to be used in war were first blessed by Christian ministers. American soldiers were sent to the Middle East under a president who called himself a christian who said God told him to invade Iraq.
    Jesus said many people thru the ages would claim to be his followers but would actually be the followers of Satan. He called them Wolves in Sheep’s clothing.

    It is my belief that those Christians who have slaughtered and killed in Jesus name were pretenders, for Jesus neither authorized violence, nor desired it, but most vehemently spoke against any use of force. He said A TREE IS KNOWN BY ITS FRUIT, and he said you would be able to know his true disciples by their LOVE.

    Remember, the way to the kingdom is very narrow, and FEW there be who find it. Not eveyone who says: Lord, Lord… is a disciple.

    If you believe war is right with Yeshua, maybe you should reread his words:

    “Resist not evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.” (Mt. 5:39)
    “Remind the Christians to speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, showing meekness to all men.” (Titus 3:2)
    “Follow Peace with all men and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.” (Hebrews 12:14)
    The servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves.” (2 Timothy 2:24-25)
    “Do all things without murmurrings and disputings, that ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God without rebuke in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation.” (Philipians 2:14:15)
    Jesus came “to guide our feet into the way of Peace.” (Luke 1:79)
    Whatever you to to another it is as tho you were doing it to Jesus for he said:”In as much as ye have done it into one of the least of these, my brothers, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:40)
    “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother” (1John 3:10)
    “He that doeth good is of God, but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.” (3John 1.11)
    “He that kills with the sword, must be killed with the sword.” (Revelation 13:10)
    Forgive “one another if any man have a quarrel with any.” (Colossians 3:13)
    If anyone steals from you “take it joyfully” (Hebrews 10:34)
    Even if you are unjustly enslaved or imprisoned, you do not resist but seek to convert your Jailers as St. Paul did. (Philippians 4:22)
    “Be diligent that you may be found in Peace.” (2 Peter 3:14)
    But doesn’t the Bible say we are to obey the Government? Yes, in all things which are not contrary to the Gospel, but if Jesus says live in peace and the governments says go to war, then “We ought to obey God rather than men.” (Acts 5:29)
    The Fruit of the Spirit is Peace…Love…Gentleness…Meekness” (Galatians 5:22)
    “Walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of Peace.” (Ephesians 4:1-3)
    Peace is the Gospel . This is the doctrine of Christ. “Whosoever transgresses and abides not in the Doctrine of Christ hath not God.” (2John 2:1)
    “The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.” (James 3:18)
    “Whosoever compells you to go a mile with him, go with him twain.” (Mt.5:41)
    “When they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another” (Matthew 10:32)
    This world is not your home. “You are citizens of heaven.” (Philippians 3:20)
    “I say unto you love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which desoitefully use and persecute you, that you may be children of your father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 5:44-45)
    “Behold I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; be ye therefore as wise a serpents, and as harmless as doves.” (Matthew 10:15)
    “Have peace with one another.” Romans 9:50)
    “Let us follow after the things that make for peace.” (Romans 14:19)
    “God hath called us unto Peace.” (1 Corinthians 7:15)
    “Live in peace.” (2 Corinthians 13:11)
    Jesus mission was to “Preach Peace.” (Acts 10:36)
    Jesus came and “preached peace.” (Ephesians 2:17)
    “Seek Peace and ensue it.” (1Peter 1:3)
    “As you would that men would do to you, do ye also to them likewise.” (Luke 6:31)
    “We are counted as sheep for the slaughter.” (Romans 8:36)
    “Blessed are the Peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God.” (Matthew 5:19)
    “He hath given us the ministry of reconciliation” (2 Corinthians 5:18)
    “As far as your responsibility goes, live at peace with all men.” (Romans 12:18 Phillips translation)
    “On earth peace, good will towards men.” (Luke 2:14)
    “If any man will sue thee at the law to take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.” (Matthew 5:40)
    “Ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, see that ye be not troubled.” (Matthew 24:8)
    “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight that I should be delivered of the Jews.” (John 18:36)
    “Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword, shall perish with the sword.” (Matthew 26:52)
    “Bless them that persecute you: bless and curse not.” (Romans 12:14)
    “Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.” (Romans 12:20)
    “Recompense no man evil for evil.” (Romans 12.:7)
    “Being reviled, we bless . Being persecuted we suffer it. Being defamed, we entreat.” (1Corinthians 4:12-13)
    “Dearly Beloved, avenge not yourselves but rather give place unto wrath, for it is written Vengeance is mine, I will repay saith the Lord.” (Romans 12:19)
    “Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him, if he thirst, give him drink.” (Romans 12:9)
    “See that none render evil for evil, or railing for railing, but contrariwise blessing.” (1 Peter3:9)
    God’s primary title in the New Testament is The God of Peace. It is used six times (Rom. 15:33, Heb. 13:20, Phil. 4:9, Rom. 16:20, 1 Thess. 5:3, 2 Thess. 3:16)
    “Blessed are the Meek for they shall inherit the earth.” (Mt.5.5)
    “God is not the author of confusion, but of Peace.” (1Cor.14:33)
    “How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of them that preach The Gospel of Peace.” (Rom.10:15)
    “Finally Brethern, farewell, be perfect. Be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace and the God of Love and Peace shall be with you.” (2 Cor.13.11)

  4. Tracey says:

    Amen sister

  5. Paxton says:

    Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 08:36:48 -0700
    From: paxtonbar…@suddenlink.net
    To: open-door-community-church@googlegroups.com
    Subject: RE: Remember

    I recommend we put this aside and pray for God’s guiding of our minds and hearts for his will for each of our lives.

    Now, let us drop these controversies among us, which are small compared to the binding love between us, which is brotherly love of being Christians and the Holy Spirit that’s in all who puts his faith in Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. Let’s not give Satan any foot hold among us and concentrate on who’s in control and give Him praise for our salvation through Jesus Christ.

    Over time, I’ve seen churches bring minor issues to squabble about that are very miniscule in comparison to what the gathering of ourselves should really be about.

    I myself, have sent political e-mails to my fellow church members, which I ask for forgiveness for. I shouldn’t have done this.

    For me, the only good that’s come from this, is making me aware that things of this nature are disrupting to my concentration on what matters the most,… My daily walk with Christ.

    After all, maybe that’s why there are so many “religions” , when, to me, the only true religion is “one’s personal relationship with Jesus Christ”.

    I love my church folk, and pray we bind ourselves in brotherly love for one another, in the passion that Jesus Christ would have us to.

    Love you all,
    Paxton

  6. Angie says:

    — On Fri, 6/10/11, ANGELA wrote:

    From: ANGELA
    Subject: RE: Remember
    To: open-door-community-church@googlegroups.com
    Date: Friday, June 10, 2011, 5:25 PM

    I agree with Paxton, lets move on and move forward in our walk. I hold no hard feelings toward anyone, never did! I know there are things that are going on in the world that are corrupt and evil, and we should be passionate to do what we can to right these wrongs, but sometimes I feel that these things are taking priority over Christ and our trust in Him. Let’s never forget that He is in total control. He knows what is happening in the world even better than we do. I love you all, Your sister, Angie

  7. Neil says:

    neil Jun 11 11:56AM -0700

    First of all, I must apologize to Tracey. I sent an e-mail that, after re-reading was a little threatening in tone and I should not have said what I did. I had a knee-jerk reaction that caused a temporary vocal hemorrhage, So Tracey, I am sorry.

    I have been watching this trying to decide how to respond without further hurting someones feelings or causing dissent within out family. Glad I waited, ’cause I could not have said it better that Paxton.

    We will have disagreements, thats what makes each of us unique! How boring would it be if we all agreed on every thing! We often will just have to agree to disagree and move on.

    Thanks again for the words of wisdom Paxton,

    Love you each and every one,
    Neil Coster

  8. Tracey says:

    Hello Brothers and Sister,
    I agree with all your statements. Neil, I don’t blame you for your
    reaction. Realize that we all make decisions and statements everyday
    based on judgements we make of people and circumstances. Some voice
    these judgements unknowingly, some don’t voice them, but some voice
    them knowingly for a reason. I believe wholeheartedly that mine was
    the latter. When I write something or say something that i know will
    be controversial, I tend to choose my words carefully at the onset.
    My words probably made you all burn inside, likely with anger and I
    don’t blame you, they are pretty strong. We are not to conform to
    this world and that includes what the world says it right, true, good,
    or honourable, except to try to live peaceably among them. So,
    whenever someone says something that goes against the grain of the
    common worldly thought process, they are called strange. I am proud
    to be called strange and different. The world hated my King and
    Saviour and they will hate me as well. Think about what “society”
    says or thinks is okay, then read scripture…they’re not the same
    thing. We are not called to right any wrongs or take vengeance, or be
    the worlds police. We are called to preach, warn, and be watchmen and
    witnesses for the Messiah Yah’shua. Men’s hearts turned to Yahshua is
    the the only thing that will change anything…not activism, politics,
    science. Let us point out the lies, so we can then point to the
    truth. We must till the soil (expose sin) before we can plant the
    seed (share the truth). Let’s turn our backs on the common worldly
    thinking processes and follow our Messiah. He is the way, the truth,
    and the life. Sometimes what the world calls love is hate disguised
    as love and virtue.
    If someone was dying from choking on a piece of bread, would we stroke
    them on the head, tell them we love them, then tell them they need to
    go ahead and cough up this bread before they die…or…would we punch
    them in the gut, blowing out the chunk and save their lives?
    I love all you guys in Yahshua Messiah, Tracey
    PS: This conversation in it’s entirety is, and will be, posted at
    http://warrioroftruth.info/?p=1268

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  10. great article mate but how do I get your rss feed?

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